Curse

rebirthofdragon · Jul 14, 2008, 02:26 AM // 02:26

I keep hearing people talk about the Imbagon, but I just don't get it. Sure, it has great energy gain and fast adrenaline, but there's virtually no offense! I suppose that, as far as providing party-wide defenses and moderate damage is concerned, Paragons do it better than anyone else. But since they don't really kill anything, I don't see how they're broken. Auto-attacking and occasionally throwing up shouts hardly seems like it would make for a OMG TOO GOOD character. Could someone please dispel my ignorance?

[Morkai] · Jul 14, 2008, 02:30 AM // 02:30

People are stupid. Is all i have to say really.

Oh, and with an OoP Dervish Para's can throw out a decent DPS, whilst still giving everyone +100 Armor every 3 seconds.

Boogz · Jul 14, 2008, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Paras are really broken, they have huge partywide defensive buffs that can't be removed([Incoming][Defensive Anthem][Never Surrender][Stand Your Ground],etc), efficient partywide heals([Song of Restoration][Ballad of Restoration], in a full para team [Chorus of Restoration]), and huge DPS([Aggressive Refrain][Go For the Eyes][Vicious Attack][Cruel Spear])
edit: forgot to mention the offensive buffs([Anthem of Guidance][Anthem of Weariness][Anthem of Disruption][Anthem of Envy][Crippling Anthem][Zealous Anthem][Anthem of Flame], etc)
and the famous Imbagon

That's my opinion

Trinity Fire Angel · Jul 14, 2008, 02:54 AM // 02:54

OoP Dervish? Don;t you mean Necro?

Mortal Amongst Mere Gods · Jul 14, 2008, 03:03 AM // 03:03

@ Trinity: There's a D/N build that uses Mysticism for e-management. I'm considering running it on one of my heroes for support.

I agree that paras don't have crap worth of dps, but they're broken. Boogz pretty well summed it up: really good buffs, crazy shouts/chants, irremovable protection. It's like a prot monk that can't be stopped by ench stripping. I only know of two skills that can stop shouts: [Skill]Well of Silence[/Skill] and [Skill]Vocal Minority[/Skill].

Shayne Hawke · Jul 14, 2008, 03:07 AM // 03:07

When you have a dual monk backline and +100 armor on almost everyone, you leave five slots open for damage dealing. If you can't kill with that much power left over, you're doing it wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trinity Fire Angel

OoP Dervish? Don;t you mean Necro?

Negatory. Scroll down. Short-duration enchants + party-wide healz. gogogo.

Trinity Fire Angel · Jul 14, 2008, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mortal Amongst Mere Gods

@ Trinity: There's a D/N build that uses Mysticism for e-management. I'm considering running it on one of my heroes for support.

sounds interesting....

where do you get the +100 from? ele's have 60AL. Stand your ground only gives +24AL. Are you talking about Shields up or Save Yourselves as well??? isn;t there an armour stacking nerf that prevents stacking past +25AL. So casters can only get to 85AL

edit: from the wiki;\

The sum of all armor buffs gained from skills and effects cannot exceed +25. However, if one or more effects add more than +25 armor by themselves (for example +40 from Physical Resistance), then the largest of these effects counts as the total buff, even if it is larger than +25.

wetsparks · Jul 14, 2008, 03:36 AM // 03:36

I believe the +100 armor is this skill, theres nothing to fear. it reduces damage by up to 31% which I think may be the equivalent of an extra 100 armor points.

Rick Thene · Jul 14, 2008, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trinity Fire Angel

sounds interesting....

where do you get the +100 from? ele's have 60AL. Stand your ground only gives +24AL. Are you talking about Shields up or Save Yourselves as well??? isn;t there an armour stacking nerf that prevents stacking past +25AL. So casters can only get to 85AL

+100 from "SY!". Armour boosts can't stack beyond +20 (or is it +40?) but can go beyond that through individual skills.

Yes, Para's are overpowered. It doesn't really matter how much offense they have if no one in your party can die. Just get the Necros and Warriors to kill stuff.

Arkantos · Jul 14, 2008, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

I keep hearing people talk about the Imbagon, but I just don't get it. Sure, it has great energy gain and fast adrenaline, but there's virtually no offense! I suppose that, as far as providing party-wide defenses and moderate damage is concerned, Paragons do it better than anyone else. But since they don't really kill anything, I don't see how they're broken. Auto-attacking and occasionally throwing up shouts hardly seems like it would make for a OMG TOO GOOD character. Could someone please dispel my ignorance?

A paragon auto attacking deals about the same dps as a sword auto attacking. A paragon can pretty much spam spear of lighting and another attack skill. Sure, it's not as much damage as a warrior, but it's good damage. Besides that, the insane party wide buffs the imbagon has (save yourselves and there's nothing to fear) is enough to make them broken.

If you don't think a character that can keep a +100 armor party wide buff up indefinitely while negating up to 35% of all damage 50% of the time, I really don't want to know your definition of broken.

Quote:

I believe the +100 armor is this skill, theres nothing to fear. it reduces damage by up to 31% which I think may be the equivalent of an extra 100 armor points.

Wrong. Save yourselves is the skill that gives +100 armor. +100 armor is equivalent to reducing damage by ~82.32%.

Rhamia Darigaz · Jul 14, 2008, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

I keep hearing people talk about the Imbagon, but I just don't get it. Sure, it has great energy gain and fast adrenaline, but there's virtually no offense! I suppose that, as far as providing party-wide defenses and moderate damage is concerned, Paragons do it better than anyone else. But since they don't really kill anything, I don't see how they're broken. Auto-attacking and occasionally throwing up shouts hardly seems like it would make for a OMG TOO GOOD character. Could someone please dispel my ignorance?

imbagon reduces damage dealt to your team by about 82%, more if you include theres nothing to fear being up half the time and the partywide heal it provides. not every character in a team has to be a wtf 90 dps all the time killing machine. welcome to guild wars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

If you don't think a character that can keep a +100 armor party wide buff up indefinitely while negating up to 35% of all damage 50% of the time, I really don't want to know your definition of broken.

im thinking that build with the necro saccing health with an enchantment while under shadow walk - the one that was literally hit the health sac enchant as fast as you can and shit near you explodes and caused the shadow walk chage a bit ago - would be his cutoff for broken

poasiods · Jul 14, 2008, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by wetsparks

I believe the +100 armor is this skill, theres nothing to fear. it reduces damage by up to 31% which I think may be the equivalent of an extra 100 armor points.

What Arkantos said. By using [save yourselves] and [there's nothing to fear] together, you reduce damage by 82.32% with +100 armor and additional 30+% with [there's nothing to fear].

Pleikki · Jul 14, 2008, 04:49 AM // 04:49

+100ar from SY (save yourselves) & theres nothing to fear and some other shouts and you cant take dmg, that makes paragons so good, does monk makes dmg neither ? No, but still they're good.

la_cabra_de_vida · Jul 14, 2008, 05:04 AM // 05:04

To answer the question yes they are. Unsnarable dps from the midline with partywide buffs and high al is horribly broken.

odly · Jul 14, 2008, 06:35 AM // 06:35

I agree that the paragon in PvE is overpowered. But this is mostly because of the PvE skill's. I think SY in itself is broken.

I wonder how balanced a paragon without PvE skills is these days. I know they were overpowered in PvP as well, but the balanced adjustments have remedied that I think.

Milan-V · Jul 14, 2008, 11:27 AM // 11:27

No, Save Yourselves! is broken.

rebirthofdragon · Jul 14, 2008, 02:43 PM // 14:43

So then, if I'm understanding this right, Paragons are so good because 2 of them can keep up ["Save Yourselves!"] and ["There's Nothing to Fear!"] indefinitely while healing each other and poking opponents to death.

The default build seems to be:
2x [Build prof=P/W Leadership=11+1 Spear Mastery=11+1+1 Command=8+1][Focused anger][aggressive refrain]["Save Yourselves!"]["There's Nothing to Fear!"]["Go for the eyes!"][Anthem of Flame][No skill][no skill][/build]

Admittedly, this makes for a pretty strong, versatile build. However, if you look at:
2x [build prof=W/P Strength=12+1 Sword=12+1+1][Enduring Harmony]["For Great Justice!"][Enraging Charge][Dragon Slash][Flail]["Save Yourselves!"][Brawling Headbutt][Steelfang Slash][/build]
the builds are surprisingly close in most respects. For example, armor:
P/W: 80(base) + 10(insignia) - 20(cracked armor) + 100(SY!)+ 16(shield) + ~40(TNTF) = 226
W/P: 80(base) + 20(insignia) + 100(SY!)+ 16(shield) = 216

But where the W/P is short on heals, the P/W is very short on damage. The biggest advantage of the paragon seems to be the ability to attack from a distance, but does that really outweigh the damage and KD of the warrior? In this context, the P/W appears actually disadvantaged unless you whole party has to stand against absolutely MASSIVE damage and that ~40 extra armor is necessary for your back liners.

Is that right or am I still overlooking some important factor? The reason I ask is that I am getting bored of my Mesmer (what with [Angorodon's Gaze] getting totally nerfed and [Signet of Illusions] not being as cool as I thought) and want to try something else. I've tried Rangers on several occasions and got bored every time, I tried Paragon once, and now Mesmer once, and I have, and enjoy, every other prof.

Tyla · Jul 14, 2008, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Milan-V

No, Save Yourselves! is broken.

Both are broken. SY is just broken in itself while Paragons are broken as a whole.

And don't call spear damage mediocre. It's melee-like damage from a distance, and if that doesn't say something to you please go away. Extremely good considering you're at range.

DarkNecrid · Jul 14, 2008, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Paragons don't do damage, because Spears do Sword damage, which is a pressure damage range. They aren't built to do BIG DOMAGE!1!!!!! though [Spear of Fury] comes pretty close with a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing +40.

Bowstring Badass · Jul 14, 2008, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Thene

+100 from "SY!". Armour boosts can't stack beyond +20 (or is it +40?) but can go beyond that through individual skills.

They don't stack past +25.

Also sword dps from a range is broken. I can basically run a sword warrior but with an IAS that never ends. Paragons = broken.

Rebirth your math is wrong. You can't get save yourselves onto yourself unless someone else in your party is using it as well.